Apolitical Staples

It’s doubtful Afghanistan was a direct motivator for them, but it certainly factors into whatever hateful bile they’ve been duped into swallowing.

What I’d like to know is, after reading that article are conservatives going to admit that the left has been right all along in its assertion that good old fashioned police work is the best and most successful way of dealing with the terrorist threat?

Good one Robert. But I believe that you guys spent most your time arguing that there was no Islamist threat to Canada whatsoever and this is purely an problem only the U.S faced.

“What I’d like to know is, after reading that article are conservatives going to admit that the left has been right all along in its assertion that good old fashioned police work is the best and most successful way of dealing with the terrorist threat?”

You mean throwing rocks/demonstrating at police officers who were arresting men like this and demanding their release? (Which was the Left’s reaction whenever an Al Qaeda suspect was arrested in Canada).

Furthur more you can’t stop ALL the planned attacks, eventually a terrorist plot will slip by law enforcement like all criminal acitivty. The question is how to remove the Islamist terrorist threat alltogether. And what the Left’s suggestion here is “Do nothing in the Middle East” simply maintains the status-quo in that region that helps breed more terrorists.

You can’t win by playing defense all the time.

If not Afghanistan, then what and in any event:so what. Divining terrorist motivation is an armchair sport. Stopping them is a mortally important exercise.

But I believe that you guys spent most your time arguing that there was no Islamist threat to Canada whatsoever and this is purely an problem only the U.S faced.

This statement of yours is gibberish. First of all, the meme that the left argues there is no terrorist threat to Canada is nothing more than a lie that liars like you like to tell.

But the reason your statement is gibberish is because you ignorantly think Islamist and terrorist are interchangeable words. They aren’t and the adults here are discussing terrorists.

They attack us in North America because we are “infedels”.

That seems to be reason enough for them to target non-Muslim countries like the US and Canadians on 9/11, Britain (London), Spain, Australians…the list is getting longer.

In fact - we have been on their hate list long before 9/11; long before Iraq and Afghanistan- they had years and years of hatred building up in their terrorist camps and by their desire to control the world heroin market from Afghanistan’s poppy fields.

In fact I believe these people consider the marketing of drugs to be part of their destruction of the infidel countries - and in many ways it is working as the drug addictions have eroded our countries.

Back to logic school Robert—most terrorist activity is “Islamist”; you can’t miss it, and if you do, you’re the one who is willfully ignorant. Check the following link for a frightening compendium of Islamic terror attacks since 9/11: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Afghanistan had nothing to do with this.

I’m glad that Greg Staples posted on this today cause most blogs are silent on it. In typical Canadian fashion we shrug our shoulders and pretend like we’re not a target. Staples at least raises the issue here which is great. I wonder what crazy Dippers think about this? Should we offer to hold these extremeist’s hands in peace? Maybe that will solve our problems?

These people want to kill us regardless of our actions. Their foreign policy excuses are nothing more than a guise for their racism. Too bad the CBC et. al don’t get it.

First of all, the meme that the left argues there is no terrorist threat to Canada is nothing more than a lie that liars like you like to tell.

Really? Okay, so you admit that it is a threat. But you refuse to give the police the powers they need to prevent attacks. The NDP would repeal the ATA which is what allowed these arrests today.

So spare me your “we were right all along that the police not the military is the best way to deal with this problem”. Because YOU and the left want to severely limit the ability of the police to prevent these terrorist plots. If the NDP were in power these people would not be in custody.

The NDP would repeal the ATA which is what allowed these arrests today.

Nice try, liar. The NDP has a problem with a few sections of the ATA and want them amended so as not to infringe upon our rights and freedoms. They don’t have a problem with the whole thing.

I think the word terrorist has outlived its usefulness. I agree with you Robert that this type of “terrorist threat” is best tackled with law enforcement. But with the help of intelligence, you know - spys…spooks.

But there are different types of “terrorist threats”. Obviously typically law enforcement would not have stopped Sammy Boy if he was allowed to hang in a Taliban run Afghanistan.

So I don’t think either side would be correct in saying all of one and none of the other. But did either side say that?

Actually scratch that last part. It will just bait you into trying to prove something that is irrelevant. No one speaks entirely for the right, of the left or the centre.

But with the help of intelligence, you know - spys…spooks.

Yeah, I pretty much include them as part of the law enforcement effort even if agencies like CSIS aren’t technically law enforcement.

I wonder what crazy Dippers think about this? Should we offer to hold these extremeist’s hands in peace? Maybe that will solve our problems?

I will bite. I think they should be prosecuted and sent to jail if found guilty.

Robert, sounds like we are pretty close to being on the same page. You do realize that CSIS was spying on Canadians during this case, right?

My, where to begin.

Firstly, I agree with Robert. These arrests are the result of good, old fashioned police work. And this includeds CSIS (and probably CSE, since the case involves intercepts of encrypted electronic communciations). Sounds like Canadian law enforcement learned its lessons from Air India and are sharing information properly (the same problem which allowed 9/11 to occur as well, I might add.

Now to the straw men and other silly arguments:

“You mean throwing rocks/demonstrating at police officers who were arresting men like this and demanding their release? (Which was the Left’s reaction whenever an Al Qaeda suspect was arrested in Canada).”

I never heard of this incident Knight. Perhaps you can provide a link or more information.

Furthur more you can’t stop ALL the planned attacks, eventually a terrorist plot will slip by law enforcement like all criminal acitivty. The question is how to remove the Islamist terrorist threat alltogether.

Exactly, except removing the “Islamist terrorist threat” is a bit nebulous. Shall we deport all Muslims? Arabs? Lcok them in camps? Despite what others have said here, terrorism is not the exclusive perview of Muslims and most Mulsims do not support it. Ostracizing the majority will not make us safer but simply drive more moderates who would help into the waiting arms of the radicals that use terrorism.

And what the Left’s suggestion here is “Do nothing in the Middle East” simply maintains the status-quo in that region that helps breed more terrorists.

Knight, the world is not black and white, no matter how much you wish it to be so. Not invading Iraq is NOT the same as “Do nothing in the Middle East”. There are lots of things that can be done differently than they are now, or were pre-9\11. I mean the US is certainly “Doing something in the Middle East” - Abu Ghraib, Haditha, Gitmo etc - but I’m pretty sure none of those things is making the world or the US safer from terrorism.

On the other hand, there are a great many of us “lefties” and Dippers that actually support the mission in Afghanistan for these very reasons.

Really? Okay, so you admit that it is a threat. But you refuse to give the police the powers they need to prevent attacks.

Besides what Robert said, you seem to be really missing the entire point here buddy. The police made the arrests and foiled the plot using our existing criminal justice system. They must have had warrants for the arrests and court orders for the electronic eavesdropping that helped them monitor the group since 2004. The 17 were all charged with Criminal Code offences and will appear in court.

Our system worked. This had nothing to do with Security Certificates and arrest and detention without charge. So far the regular criminal justice system, acting in concert with our intelligence services (for once) have foiled an actual plot to bomb in Canada. Security Certificates have been used to lock up an Ottawa pizza delivery guy without charge or trial. I think I know which one works better, without infringing on our freedoms.

As for punishment, I’m with Greg (Bester) on this - a fair and public trial with these guys sentenced to the max. And I think that given the plot and the ideology involved, it would be a slam dunk for the Crown to argue these guys are dangerous offenders under the Criminal Code and given indefinite sentences.

Greg,

Probably CSE, which has that jurisdiction, in concert with CSIS and the RCMP. I know and have worked with CSE - they don’t do this stuff domestically without a warrant.

As along as there is a warrant - some evidence was presented to a judge that allowed that judge to reasonalby state that the eavesdropping and spying was warranted, then all is good. That is how the system works and it seems to be working well.

I am all for law enforcement but my understanding of the situation is that this case used new law enforcement tools passed after 9/11 and there was co-operation that did not exist before 9/11.

This was not status quo law enforcement. And I will admit that it suprises me that you consider intelligence traditional law enforcement. I like that you think that but that sounds like a new position to me. But I may be wrong on that one.

Greg,

I think that the new cooperation has more to do with the Air India debacle than 9\11 - CSIS and the RCMP refusing to communicate and cooperate led to the destruction of evidence and the recent aquittals. CSE has always had as part of its mandate to help law enforcement, when a warrant is present.

I’ll grant that the task force was probably a product of 9\11 and that some of the new Criminal Code offences were the result of 9\11, but the basics remain the same - warrants based on reasonable and probable grounds signed by a judge, ongoing police investigations across jurisdictions, arrest and trial in the criminal courts. All of these are the same old thing we have always done. The particular offences are new and the cooperation refreshingly so, but other than that, simply replace the word “terrorist” with “Hells Angels” and one of the names beginning with “Mohammed” with “Mom Boucher” and you have every organized crime and biker gang investigation in Canada for the last 20 years.

That’s what I mean by the same old law enforcement. New actors and task forces applying new criminals laws, but the implementation and application is the same as it has always been.

I wish people would stop describing the Security Certificates as arrest and detention without charge. As I understand it, those under Security Certificates are free to leave Canada any time. The same does not apply to sentenced prisoners in Canadian jails.

This statement of yours is gibberish. First of all, the meme that the left argues there is no terrorist threat to Canada is nothing more than a lie that liars like you like to tell.

What are you kidding me? Evreytime CSIS comes out with a report detailing the dangers of terrorism most of the left in this country ridicules them and accuse them of “fearmongering” Canadians into George Bush’s war.

But the reason your statement is gibberish is because you ignorantly think Islamist and terrorist are interchangeable words. They aren’t and the adults here are discussing terrorists.

Evreywhere Islamists (Muslim Supremacists) take a stronghold terror follows. Think about it, Iran following the 79 revolution, Saudi Arabia after the Wahabis, the Sudan in the early 90’s, Afghanistan following the Taliban. Don’t you at least notice a trend?

Nice try, liar. The NDP has a problem with a few sections of the ATA and want them amended so as not to infringe upon our rights and freedoms.

Theirony here is that law enforcement was from what we know so far spying on Canadian citizens and monitaring their internet. Doesn’t that sound like the very things the NDP opposed to?

Mike:

“I never heard of this incident Knight. Perhaps you can provide a link or more information.”

A demonstartion took place in Montreal just before the election to protest the legal condition of Adil Charkaoui, the protestors got a little crazy, and before you know the riot police was dodging debris being thrown at them. The article in Canada.com is no longer online, but I’ll see if I can get for you through ProQuest tomorow.

Exactly, except removing the “Islamist terrorist threat” is a bit nebulous. Shall we deport all Muslims? Arabs? Lcok them in camps?

Wow. Talk about strawman arguments. You really believe that I want to be imprisioned and locked up for no good reason? Come on Mike, use your head.

Despite what others have said here, terrorism is not the exclusive perview of Muslims and most Mulsims do not support it. Ostracizing the majority will not make us safer but simply drive more moderates who would help into the waiting arms of the radicals that use terrorism.

I believe your preaching to the Converted Bub. Where, in the name of evreything that’s holly, did I ever suggest “Ostracizing” the majority of which I am part of?

Not invading Iraq is NOT the same as “Do nothing in the Middle East”. There are lots of things that can be done differently than they are now, or were pre-9\11.

WHAT? What exactly did “Progressives” plan on doing to change matters in the Middle East that would cease that region to become a hot breading ground for suicide bombers and religious extreamists (of a whole new level). They might be a minority, but its a pretty heavy minroty (50 million out of 1 billion is still a shit-load of people).

All I heard were things NOT to do. Don’t invade Iraq, Don’t Invade Iran, Don’t invade Syria, Don’t adopt regime change, dont…you get the picture. From what I can tell its pretty much a neo-Isolationist view with the mentality “If were nice to them, they’ll be nice to us”. Which quite frankly, is incredibly naive.

Abu Ghraib, Haditha, Gitmo etc - but I’m pretty sure none of those things is making the world or the US safer from terrorism.

An isolated incident, an ongoing investigation, and an air-conditioned prision facility where prisinors enjoy three meals a day, prayer services and extra curricular activities is a hell of a step up from what the Afghan Army plans to do with them should they capture those guys instead of the U.S. army.

But just for kicks, let’s add: Weakening the Taliban in Afghanistan, Removed a totaltarian dictaor in Iraq, forced Syria out of Lebanon, Disarmed Libya of WMD’s, backing the student movement in Iran, Isolated Arafat…should I go on?

You do realize that CSIS was spying on Canadians during this case, right?

Are you baiting me again? This is something that only Americans (and perhaps our own Libertoonians when it’s done by Liberals) freak out over.

Evreytime CSIS comes out with a report detailing the dangers of terrorism most of the left in this country ridicules them and accuse them of “fearmongering” Canadians into George Bush’s war.

You right whingers just flit about from one lie to the next, don’t you? Do you want to know why you believe such silly nonsense? It’s because you accept the word of know nothing rubes who make these types of claims but never actually point out to it being done or at best find some fringe group or silly forum poster to back the claim up. This then distorts your view of the world.

Robert taking credit, on behalf of the loony left, for being “right all along in its assertion that good old fashioned police work is the best and most successful way of dealing with the terrorist threat” reminds me of the way politicians try to see where the parade is going so that they can get to its front and be perceived as leading it.

I’ll bite, Robert. Can you give me a quote from Jack Layton saying something akin to “We need to empower our police and security forces so that they are equipped to tackle domestic and imported terrorism”?

And can you provide a link to where you said it? (Prior to this event, that is?)

McClueless, he of the infamous “F**k the jews” spots an opportunity to clamor on his soapbox to spew an anti-con diatribe, wots required here is for Kinsella to take this bozo out to the woodshed and administer another spanking.

MarkC,

You are from Ottawa. You know quite well that Harkat was held without charge or trial. He was not even allowed to see the so-called evidence against him. He was locked up under a Security Certificate. Its a lot of things, but its not due process. And Harkat has been a citizen since 1997.

Knight,

Thanks for that info…I was not aware of that incident.

So then, how do you rpopose to “remove the Islamist terrorist threat” from Canada? And how is that different than the terroist threat presented by Webo Ludwig, the Aryan Nations or other kooks like that?

As for some of your other points:

Let see, there was following and strengthening the UN. There was supporting the moderates in Palestine, freezing the assets of those who were not. Lots of other things.

And if you actually listen to the new Iraqi PM, Abu Grahib and Haditha are not isolated incidents, they are a pattern of on going abuse. There are tow more massecres by US forces now being investigated. Three years after “Mission Accomplished” the insurgency is gaining ground and gathering recruits. If you don’t think things like this aren’t swelling the ranks of terror cells around the world, you are a fool. Iraq has created more terrorist than it prevented.

Weakening the Taliban: Good, I am a supporter of the mission there. I think that this is the right thing to do.

Removed a Totalitarian dictator from Iraq: Who used to be your buddy, who had been starved of resources for 12 years. And now yiou have a widespread and popular insurgency resluting more death, kidnappings and terrorism thatn Saddam was ever repsonsible for. Out of the frying pan ind into the fire. Not a good move. We now have more terrorism in the world thanks to that invasion, not less.

Forcing Syria out of Lebanon: Done by the Lebanese people and no one else, along the lines of the Orange Revolution. By a democratic vote. Not by Bombs or threats of bobms - the US even then could barely contain Iraq, let alone venture anywhere else.

Disarming Lybia of WMD: Lybia, that has been isolated for close to 20 years. Which actual WMD was that? The stopped their program for finacial aid. No bombs or invasion.

Backing the student movement in Iran: Guess what? In 2002, Iran was led by a Reformist PM who was backed by that student movement. The “Axis of Evil” comment destroyed that almost overnight. Now there is a radical hardliner for a president. Yeah, good job there.

Isolated Arafat: And now Hamas, who are far worse than Arafat, run the PA. Again, nicely done. At least Arafat recognized the right of Isreal to exist.

We could go on like this for hours.

More to the point of this post, I posit that our police forces and intelligence service have done a great job, within the confines of due process and without resorting to preemtpive wars, detention without trial, ongoing torture or widepread surviellence of our own citizens.

No amount of fear of terrorism will make me give up my freedoms.

“So then, how do you rpopose to “remove the Islamist terrorist threat” from Canada?”

Well its not just a Canadian problem Mike. Its an American, British, French, German, Australian, etc…problem as well. And my short answer to that is this: Changing the status quo in the Muslim World. And I’ll be more than happy to read any of your suggestions for that.

“And how is that different than the terroist threat presented by Webo Ludwig, the Aryan Nations or other kooks like that?”

Well…is Webo Ludwig et all’s ideology and perceptions shared by millions aroung the world? Are there any evidence that some nationstates back up these extreamist organizations? Is the Canadian Intelligence community raising the alarm on these groups as much as theyare on Muslim Extreamists?

The answer to that is…no.

“Let see, there was following and strengthening the UN”

Which consisted of 100+ dictatorship regimes who did’nt want any reform. Plus you had China and Russia who see no interest whatsoever in weakening many of the Middle Eastern regimes who were part of the problem (as they have enourmous economic incentives not to). This would have lead to more stonewalling, more useless talks, more dead-ends, all again leading to “do nothing”.

“There was supporting the moderates in Palestine,”

That was occuring since oslo was signed. The US and the European Union spent hundreads of millions of dollars into scholarship funds, human right advocates, democratic rights advocates, Birzeit University, economic aid, you name it. All of it which was scooped up by Arafat’s grubby shivering hands through manners like extortion and theft from his fatah militants.

“freezing the assets of those who were not. Lots of other things.”

They did the former a long time ago. Other things such as?

“There are tow more massecres by US forces now being investigated.”

One of which they were cleared and the other is still being investigated.

“If you don’t think things like this aren’t swelling the ranks of terror cells around the world, you are a fool. Iraq has created more terrorist than it prevented.”

Yeah what do I know? I was only born there, went to high school there, lived in three arab countries, speak the language, have family members all scattered throught the region, listen to Al Jazeera almost daily…guess I’m just a fool to your prestigious expertise on the region.

Now for my points.

1. Actually he was YOUR buddy more recently. (Check out the Tariq Aziz Photo). The newly built palaces makes me suspicisous of the claim that he was “starved off ressources for 12 years”. The Mass graves tends to contradict your accusation of the number of victims Saddam had, andwhile there will definatly be bumps and bruises along the way, long term, Iraq is in a better position to steer its citizens to better living. You can’t expect 30 years of Saddam rule to be fixed in 3 years.

2. While the Lebanese people surely do deserve most of the credit for their bravery, there efforst would not have been successful had it not been for the serious diplomatic and military tone of the United States and France to force Syria out. Movements in the past tended to be smashed in a few short hours due to no external pressure on Syria.

3. Which actual WMD was that? These. And they did it after they saw how Bush was serious in removing WMD’s from their kind following what happned to Saddam.

4. Karzai’s presidency was dead before it began in 96. The Supreme leader and the Mullah’s kept blocking his reform bills, and the student’s realized he was powerless. So they did’nt bother voting in the most recent election. That is what diminished the moderate political power in Iran and not the “Axis of Evil” speach.

5. At least Arafat recognized the right of Isreal to exist. By signing the checks for the suicide bombers himself. Talk about doublespeak.

6. No amount of fear of terrorism will make me give up my freedoms.

Good! Frankly I’m more interested in protecting them rather than “giving them up”.

Your right were drifting off topic here. But if you want to continue having a civilized discussion, here’s my hotmail:

Laith2029@hotmail.com

Oh yeah, I meant to link this.

The Taqriq Aziz photo I was refering to:

http://arabiandissent.blogspot.com/2005/07/actual-quotesactions-by-canadian-mps.html

“What I’d like to know is, after reading that article are conservatives going to admit that the left has been right all along in its assertion that good old fashioned police work is the best and most successful way of dealing with the terrorist threat?”

Actually, you are correct; good old-fashioned police work saved the day. However, you should note that intelligence services were monitoring websites and phone calls.

Can’t we just convert them to Christianity and then avoid the whole mass deportation thing?

Mike, you are wrong on 3 counts:

1. I don’t live in Ottawa, I live in Toronto. You must be thinking of another MarkC.

2. Mohamed Harkat is not a citizen

3. Security certificates do not apply to non citizens.

They may not be “due process”, but they do not allow indefinite detention of anybody, nor do they apply to citizens. Foreign citizens under security certificates are allowed to leave Canada at any time.