Apolitical Staples

I think he just wants to leave the reporters stranded in France.

Me, me, me. I took a shot at him on my page. This looks exactly what it is, a hastily put together photo op for a politician in trouble.

Yeah, it’s a photo op when there are no reporters there.

It’s great that we finally have a Prime Minister who actually leads and isn’t afraid to take positions, rather than waffling all the time and tries to be all things to all people.

May he continue to support Israel and keep up the offensive against the terrorists!

Greg, it can’t be a photo op if no one is there to take the photo .. duh..

KPK just wait, by some miracle, someone will be there to document our great leader’s heroism.

In fact, if you read the article there are CTV reporters already in Cyprus waiting for the beloved one.

Greg, Did Harper send them there via catapult?

This is such a great move (humanitarily and politically) The Toronto Star, CBC & CTV will have trouble showing it in a bad light. But I wouldn’t put anything past them.

I bet he would like to, but they were already there covering the evacuation. To quote a great commenter, duh.

Greg, the only point that matters is, would any other Prime Minister in the history of Canada have even considered emptying his own transport and diverting to pick up stranded Canadians from this type of situation? The answer is a resounding no.

And that’s all that needs to be said. You can go ahead and keep popping off the cheap shots from the cheap seats. It’s too bad you don’t recognize true leadership when it smacks you in your pouting face.

… .And if Steve and Laureen flew home WITHOUT any stranded Canadians on their government aircraft, just try to imagine the hell the opposition would have raised then! The cacaphony would have been incredible.

Here’s the deal. The voters of Canada, by a slim margin of the overall electorate, voted for change.

Well, the change is here. And the change has a name. His name is Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

Now get out there and grow yourself a pair, and learn how to deal with it. (Yeah yeah yeah. 61% did NOT vote for the Conservatives. Well, more than 69% did NOT vote for the Liberal train-wreck neither.)

Move along. Nothing to see here. And yup. Some of the tourists will indoubtedly have cameras. Ergo: Photos.

And some might undoubtedly be upset and out of sorts, at the landing in Ottawa.

“Crowded plane, lousy service, worse food. Yadda Yadda Yadda.”

But you know, you can never satisfy Bill Graham and Jack! anyhow, regardless of how hard you try.

This is not so much a Lib-style photo-op as much as it it a Harper Con - SERVE -ative service-op. Serving the average Canadian. Now there’s something most Libs and Lib backers wouldn’t have a glimmer of understanding about.

If anyone happens to know the PM personally could you have him send me an autographed copy of him in Cyprus.

P.S. We should all give the men and women in Foreign Affairs a hand for their work in this unprecedented effort to evacuate 40000 Canadians.

I hope Staples is right- that this is a smart move.

It would be so easy for the media to portray this as an opportunistic photo-op, though. They could just zero in on the enormous additional logistical pressure - security, who goes on the plane and who is left behind, passport & customs - that this sidetrip must be exerting on already stressed Canadian officials on the ground.

It also needlessly escalates the gravity of the evacuation. If anything goes wrong, the PMO will not be able to distance the PM from Foreign Affairs.

Boy, I sure hope they thought through this one and it is not yet another knee jerk reaction.

Side note for G Staples:

Speaking of “smart”, what did you make of Gibby’s bullpen calls in last night’s game? Smart?

Anyone responding to Socialist Greg’s small-spirited comments should keep in mind that he has, since the election, developed a keen hatred of Harper. Check his site. Every other post is about Harper and how he’s bad and wrong, or wrong and bad. Oddly, there’s very little about what’s right with socialism, as one might expect from such a dedicated collectivist. For a buddhist, he’s exhibiting remarkably little positivity. Still too many attachments, I suppose.

Greg’s a buddhist? I thought they were supposed to be open minded..tolerant and respectful of all opinions..in other words anything but a socialist.

Don’t be bitter O.C., you can always join a better cult than the cult of Steve. And speaking of attachments you seem very attached to what I think.

KPK I have studied Buddhism but I as I have said before, I am a terrible Buddhist.

Sinister Greg:

I don’t mind you opposing Harper’s actions, based on the merits/demerits of that action.

But if something is the right thing to do, if it also provides a photo-op, it doesn’t cease to be the right thing to do.

In this case, even if it were the Dippers or the Liberals occupying the PMO instead of the CPC, what Harper is doing is the right thing to do. It will get 120 Canadians home faster, and with little cost.

Actually OC, i would say that judging by the frequency of Socialist Greg’s comments, the guy doesn’t have a life, or a job for that matter (which would explain his being a socialist…)

Harper is probably “winging” this evacuation (pun intended) but I suspect that most thinking Canadians looking at the scope of this exercise realize that this is a monumental and unique challenge. How do you move a crowd the size of the Skydome in the middle of a hot war zone halfway around the world? Harper’s involvement is a signal that this effort is the overiding priority of his government and must succeed, even to the point of putting his own security in danger. The first priority of government is to protect it’s citizens.

Considering all the left-wing rhetoric about how out of this world evil it was for Harper to denounce the actions of Hezbollah before calling for restraint from the Israelis, I’m surprised that no one has mentioned the apparent danger he is placing the life of himself and his wife in. If the Lebanese-Canadians are as upset at Harper as we are led to believe, he’s putting himself at risk at the expense of those who deride him or those stupid enough to blame him for this war.

Here’s a suggestion. Has Steve picked up the phone to our National Airline and asked for help? Discuss.

Opportunistic photo-op?

Tell me will this photo-op include Mr Harper taking a swig from a bottle of water processed by Zenon Corp? Or perhaps a few shots of Mr an Mrs Harper dipping their toes in the Indian..er I mean Mediterranian sea? Will he at least be showing up with an entourage of reporters in tow? No, left them behind to make room for the victims did he.

“Has Steve picked up the phone to our National Airline and asked for help? Discuss.” : Greg

Greg. No need top discuss.

Pay attention. Things move quickly when the nation’s leader actually leads by example and with decisive action. (cf. thirteen Gliberal years of Gov’t. and no DayCare. Yikes. What a pack of wiffle waffling maROOONZ! Pathetic Dolts.)

Yes. AirCan is involved.It’s been in all MSM for days now.

The stranded folks will NOT have to wait until we find replacements for the CANCELLED HELICOPTER ORDER @ FIVE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLAR PENALTY. (This money alone would have done wonders in propelling Canadians to the “Front Of The Line” and out of harms’ way all that much quicker.)

Harper is obviously rattled by this situation. Given what we know about his nature, a clear thinking Harper would have taken the press with him and stranded them in Lebanon, not France.

And what would you know about clear thinking Bobby?

Tango are you talking about the 3 chartered jets in Cyprus? Do you think that is a sufficient response from our national carrier? Do you think a personal intervention by our PM might persuade them to shift more jets to Cyprus? Just askin.

“And speaking of attachments you seem very attached to what I think.”

Of course you publish your thoughts so that others will ignore you.

Hmm?

Greg: You seriously think that Air Canada can do a lick of a difference? Even if they were to use 747’s, at max capacity you would need 250 flights to get the Canadians out of there!

Lame ass ideas: discuss.

I don’t care whether this is a photo-op or not. I think it’s the right thing to do. SiniGreg, OTOH, would apparently be happier if Harper just flew straight home, and didn’t divert the aircraft to pick up as many Canadians as possible. If Harper didn’t have the opportunity of the long flight home to meet with these Canadian citizens and hear from them first-hand about their experience and perspective.

And really, what more do we need to realize as we read SiniGreg’s comments?

You seriously think that Air Canada can do a lick of a difference?

I wouldn’t have mentioned it if I didn’t. If you need planes you go to the people who have them.

BTW West Jet, Air Transat and the rest of our carriers should be involved in this endevour too. This is a national emergency.

Air Canada does not operate any 747s in its current fleet. The highest-capacity aircraft they have is the A340-300 (286 seats in a typical two-class configuration). Air Canada has ten of these aircraft and two A340-500s.

• Total A340 sorties for complete air-evac of 30,000 souls: 105, or nine trips by each A340 aircraft.
• Average trip time, OLBA-CYYZ (at mach 0.72 econ cruise): 10hrs, 35min.
• Total continuous flying time for complete airlift [assuming all 12 birds flying, and not counting fuelling, crew rest, pax loading and aircraft maintenance time]: 3.97 days

Lebanon’s major civil airport (OLBA) is inoperable due to runway cratering. How is Air Canada going to get 30,000 stranded Canadians out of there without first having to sealift or truck them to an assembly area in a neighboring country which has servicable runways at least 11,000ft in length (to accomodate the A340’s max-capacity takeoff run). Discuss.

Is Air Canada willing to risk losing its entire long haul fleet and a sizeable portion of experienced flight crews in a combat area? Discuss.

There are many reasons why civil airlift (or hell, airlift at all) in this case is simply inadequate for the numbers involved. Not to mention the diplomatic hassles involved in negotiating temporary entry of all those people into one of Lebanon’s neighbours who has a workable airfield with runways of sufficient length.

The Liberal opposition expected Harper to lease the Starship Enterprise and beam 40000 people up to safety within 5 minutes of the war starting…alas if it were only so…

Actually I made a basic flight time computation error. I did not account for return (ferry) flights to Lebanon, so the number of sorties doubles as does the total continuous flying time:

• Total A340 sorties for complete air-evac of 30,000 souls: 210, or 18 flights (nine outbound, nine return) by each A340 aircraft.
• Average trip time, OLBA-CYYZ (at mach 0.72 econ cruise): 10hrs, 35min.
• Total continuous flying time for complete airlift [assuming all 12 birds flying, and not counting fuelling, crew rest, pax loading and aircraft maintenance time]: 7.94 days

I agree that PM Harper has done the right thing by diverting the plane, but his claim that he wanted to “free up the maximum number of seats for evacuees” (from the Conservative Party website) would be far more convincing if he hadn’t also kept his official photographer on board. It’s small gestures like this that reveal Harper’s dual motives: to help get some Canadians back home, yes, but also to use the moment to groom his image.

To elaborate, my comment about the official photog being on board is based on a report by the Canadian Press, reprinted by the CBC, the Toronto Star, and others.

Greg (the socialist one): Harper’s a politician in “trouble”? Like rising in the polls across the country, now having the lead with every major demographic, and making gains in Quebec not seen since Mulroney’s majority.

Greg: I do not think that word (trouble) means what you think it means.

His official photographer on board? Ya so. Do you think that he is going to give the media those pictures (if any) Al? I doubt it.

KPK: No, I don’t think the photos will show up in the newpapers, but I suspect they’ll show up here: http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/mediagallery.asp?mediacategorytypid=3&pageId=29, and possibly also resurface during a future election campaign.

Or maybe I’m wrong, and they’re only meant for Citizen Harper’s personal photo album. But if THAT were the case, then he’d be denying a stranded Canadian a seat on the plane because of vanity, wouldn’t it?

Sorry, I meant the photos might show up here

And the answer is:

Updated Wed. Jul. 19 2006 7:51 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Three of the staff members accompanying Harper are communications representatives. When asked why those officials are also going to Cyprus, the Prime Minister’s Office said that the military only provided enough stewards for the initial delegation and journalists — only about a third of the plane was full.

But with a full load on the way home, the three reps will act as stewards.

For all the criticism that Liberal hacks and the Liberal-biased media are throwing at the PM, what would the Liberals have done or what would they be able to do if they were in power? What is their solution for moving tens of thousands people at once halfway around the world on a moment’s notice?… (silence)… oh, there’s all our military ships to help them out - oh wait, the Liberals cut our military to the bone … (silence)…

As I recall, after the tsunami in December 2004, the Martin government moved waaaayyy slower than the current government’s reaction in trying to help Canadians there.

But with a full load on the way home, the three reps will act as stewards

I hope not. I believe this is a violation of law. Stewards need to be trained and licensed - I am almost certain of that.

Chris: I wasn’t really thinking about what types of planes Air Canada has (though I really should know… I fly enough), but as you pointed out the math still comes out to about the same.

218 flights is no laughing matter. And I would love to hear Greg explain exactly how we could get Air Canada involved since — with all flights booked well in advance — the only way for the Canadian government to get any measurable amount of continuous flights from any of our national carriers would be to take over the airlines and thuse decimate the Canadian airline industry with loss of customers due to their planes being yanked away from them.

Seriously… do you think customers would simply say, “No problem. Screw up our plans, take our flights, ruin our business meetings… no problem. You’ll still have our loyalty.” Yeah, right. They’ll think twice about taking an Air Canada flight again if the government can just hijack the planes… cause you know that Air Canada would never give the planes up when they already have them 10% overbooked (standard operating procedure).

As I said… lame ass idea. It is such a poorly thought out idea, I don’t know why we are even discussing it seriously.

To run to civilian spec you need one crew to 40 pax (I think that’s TC reg anyway, some other countries have 1:50). However, that wouldn’t stop PM staff from dealing with requests for water/blankets etc. from people who may not be in great shape since they were prioritised out of Leb so quickly.

I wish Harper had sent his photog home - looks dreadful when every seat is precious. Canadian embassy in Cyprus could have hired someone local to do the photos.

Where is the PM’s photographer mentioned? I didn’t see it in the CTV text.

It was mentioned on The National, Candace. Steve made sure his official photographer got a seat on the plane.

And Surecure, the Cypriot government has put out a call to all nations to send planes to Cyprus. You may think this is a big joke but believe me it is not. Cyprus is not set up to house so many refugees.

“I believe this is a violation of law”

CB is apparently not apprised of the fact that the Canadian Forces are not a commercial carrier.

I’m not laughing at the situation Greg. I’m laughing at the ridiculousness of your suggestion of our national carriers handing over planes they don’t have available. The Cyprus government has put out a call to all nations to send planes to Cyprus. Those would include military planes, transport planes, etc… you are talking about commercial carriers that are already booked my friend.

It seems like you are not seeing the big picture. Okay…

Greg, seeing as I must not be getting your grand master plan — not that you have presented one — about how to get our national carriers to hand over planes en masse without causing complete chaos in every sector of business in our country (memories of no flights around 9/11, anyone?) how about you actually post what you would propose happen?

And in detail, please. No simply saying what you already have which is: Air Canada or West Jet should just give their planes up.

Perhaps then we’ll see how well thought out you are on this matter…

…I’ll be waiting…

…a long time probably…

I’m curious. How many ships do you think Canada Steamship Lines has? And I wonder if they would be interested in helping out.

I am really, really, getting cheesed off at the public whining of these “dual citizenship” immigrants and Canadians, on TV.

http://www.thiscanada.com/2006/07/20/lebanon/#more-346

Really cheesed off!

“these “dual citizenship” immigrants and Canadians”

All Canadians are fully Canadian, and deserve equal treatment under Canadian law.

The question, though, is whether the proper systems are in place to ensure that the Grant of Citizenship is reserved for everyone who wants to make Canada a better place, and that citizenship isn’t open to be taken advantage of by any citizens of convenience.

Surecure. This is a time of war. You guys are always, always, always complaining about how no one is willing to sacrifice anymore. We have 50,000 citizens trapped in a life and death situation. Harper could, in an address to the nation, tell the people straight up that their country needs them to sacrifice their vacations for the good of the nation. We are going to have to use the planes meant for other places to help evacuate those who are trapped. Sure it is going to cause inconvenience for some but for the good of the nation and for the safety of their fellow citizens, their sacrifice will be crucial to the resolution of this crisis. Something like that. It could invoke the spirit of Dunkirk (or is all conservative worship of WWII just so much talk?).

Dennis asks a really good question too about steamships. Surely Martin has good connections with the shipping industry. Has he been asked to help? If you read today’s Grope and Flail, I would doubt it. This looks like another case of the PMO trying to control everything.

That’s what you call a plan? Just address the nation and say, “We could do our jobs and find a way of getting people out of the peaceful land of Cyprus in an organized matter that doesn’t cause massive chaos in our country, or we could just take the quick way out, confiscate airplanes from our national carriers and decimate the airline industry in our country… so we’re taking the quick way out.”

Sorry Greg, I don’t care about “you guys” statements and “you may think this is a big joke” and “PMO trying to control everything” BS. It is obvious from the lack of thought on the logistics of this (you think this is about me being concerned over people’s vacations? okay then) that you have no real concern over actual solutions and are simply trying to make a gripe. Just grabbing airplanes from the national carriers is not a solution, it is another problem entirely. And a needless one at that if there is another solution besides your fast-food mentality, quick fix.

Seeing as most of the Canadians in Lebanon are not even in Cyprus yet and thus there is no sign that Foreign Affairs doesn’t have a plan on how to get them out of Cyprus, don’t you think it’s a little premature to enforce a scorched Earth policy on our airline industry? Do you think that perhaps it would make sense to see what is done before criticizing the fact that they aren’t enforcing your view which would do a large amount of harm and may be completely unnecessary?

Probably not. After all, you seem to think that grabbing planes from our own national air carriers (rather than say, paying for charter flights from multiple airlines) is the only way to go. But, what can I say… I’m thinking of the overall picture.

And if you are so concerned about the PMO looking like it is controlling everything, what do you think it would look like if he just got on the air and said, “Hey folks, I’m taking your planes. Thanks.” Talk about setting up a Catch-22 for you Harper bashers. You say he is being controlling here and then suggest something that would make him look even more controlling.

What a joke…

Canadian Forces are not a commercial carrier.

While I am not clear on the law, I am quite sure DND has similar safety and training requirements as civilian airliners, especially when your primary role becomes transporting civilians.

Surecure you are proof that denial isn’t just a river in Egypt.

Oh, and about Paul Martin and asking companies in the steamship lines? Paul Martin was (technically is) in the bulk transport business not the passenger business. Bulk transports are entirely unsuitable for passenger transportation. They do not have the facilities, the safety mechanisms, the ability to feed large numbers of people, the environmental controls, ship design for minimal movement on the seas, etc. etc. etc.

Anyway, the Canadian government has passenger ships evacuating the Canadians right now. Wouldn’t it make more sense to get more passenger ships from the region — like they are doing — than trying to get a bunch of the North/South American liners who do business with Mr. Dithers to cross the ocean? Here you are talking about the expediency of confiscating our national air carriers and in the next sentence suggesting a snail’s pace solution.

For God’s sakes.. make up your mind!

Any more bright ideas from the control freaks here?

From you Greg, with all your schizophrenic, contradictory grand standing, I’ll take that as a compliment.

One point needs to be mentioned. Once the people are in Cyprus they are no longer in a life and death situation. In a lot of respects our obligation to protect our citizens ends when they are in Cyprus. So diverting commerical airplanes from Canada and diverting them would make a bad situation worse. I am all for getting the people back from Cyprus we must realize that we are doing it out of kindness not obligation and the people in Cyprus need to have some patience.

Actually, G Staples, if you take this morning’s G&M pieces at face value (they seem to be quoting official Canadian sources in full “fingerpointing” mode), most of the Canadian evacuations are going to be from Turkey.

It appears that the 250-odd people destined for Cyprus are doing so only because the PM showed up, at considerable logistical costs it would seem.

If this is true, I wonder why he did not go to Turkey in the first place?

Exactly my point Staples… the urgency is getting them out of the warzone. Once they are in Cyprus or Turkey, the immediacy is on the food, medicine and shelter front, with getting people back to Canada being the second priority. And as long as Cyprus or Turkey are free of being drawn into war, the methods by which the Canadians can be evacuated are much broader than basically hijacking the national carriers and causing a brand new mess.

Greg’s POV is to needlessly compound one bad situation (evacuation from Lebanon) with another (chaos in the airline industry). If you can do the first without the second — which is entirely possible with charter air services and passenger sea vessels — then it seems to me that it would be smarter to do so.

Obviously, some people would rather have both without thinking of needless consequences. Oh well.

Spare Greg (the socialist one) a bit. He’s just one who’s supporting a party that will never be in power, and supporting an ideology that, when put in practice has lead to the destruction of nations. He simply lives in a world of theories. Impractical, simplistic yet dangerous theories.

While I am not clear on the law, I am quite sure DND has similar safety and training requirements as civilian airliners, especially when your primary role becomes transporting civilians.

What an excellent time to be a rules lawyer. Whatever we do, we mustn’t let necessity upset the Rules.

Well IrC, my point was that if anything goes wrong, the legal (and political) implications could be frightening.

Since I am quite sure DND would never allow their planes to operate in such a manner, PMO spokespersons should not even allow such impressions to make their way to print.

What an excellent time to be a rules lawyer. Whatever we do, we mustn’t let necessity upset the Rules.

lrC, there are many rules that can be broken with no apparent consequences on the ground, but will result in passenger injuries or death while in the air. Exceeding weight and balance limitations specified in the POH for instance. Cramming too many unsecured bodies into the cabin (which extends your takeoff run, increases fuel burn, time-to-climb, and might cause dangerous center-of-gravity shifts during flight).

Pilots take the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) very seriously. CARs are no mere red tape that can be broken on a whim, they are there for your safety. Maybe you think it’s fun to end up as a TSB accident report, but most pilots don’t. Get a grip.