Apolitical Staples

Its looking more like a lose, lose scenario for the Libs this December.

The CPC attack ads against Rae (assuming he wins - which appears ever more likely) will be simple:

Just cut and paste the headlines of the day while Rae was in power.

If that won’t scare the bejuses out of Canadian voters I don’t know what will.

Which scariness will be juxtaposed to another well timed Harper tax cut.

It’s a good time to be a conservative in Canada.

Trust Chester. Chester knows.

That the Liberals would let this man get this close to their leadership, for no other reason than to not divide their party, shows they are not prepared to tackle the challanges of the 21st century.

I dunno Greg, given the quality of “leadership” we are getting at the moment, it might not be too difficult to get the 65% of the country (who do not support the government) to coalesce around the “not Steve” candidate. Just keep doing what you are doing (wrong Kyoto, gun control, gay marriage, etc.) and you will make that job easier. Do I like it? Hell no. Do I see it happening? Just look at the polls. The NDP is going down and the Libs are going up.

“But if you had to choose, whose judgment would you trust more: the guy who got it right at 21, or the guy who took 37 more years to figure it out?”

My thoughts exactly.

Never underestimate the Liberals for doing anything stupid to get back in power.

Hey Sinister…it’s nice that you can participate in comment/dialogue on other folks blog sites. It’s too bad you don’t have the courage of your convictions to allow folks to respond to the drive-by smears you post on your own new site. I guess the one-man echo chamber is better suited to the left position. That way you never have to justify any statement that you make. Too bad really. It was great fun watching you squirm on the old site when folks held your feet to the fire. I miss those good ole days.

I just got tired of dealing with dicks, neoprog. Greg is much more patient than I am.

Don’t worry about this Greg, this is the really big news today!

http://www.trektoday.com/news/181106_01.shtml

A virtual cottage industry of Bob Rae was a disaster columns will sprout up overnight

Probably will. But it will be countered by a vitual cottage industry of Mike Harris was a disaster columns and the election in Ontario will turn into a referendum on which nightmare was worse for the province. That’s not something I’d want as a conservative. Ontarians may still think Bob was a fool, but they most assuredly still think Mike was a miserable prick.

Coyne’s but in his cool, factual style

You have to be kidding me. Coyne’s column is a pile of hogwash. He completely fails to include the fact that interest rates were at double digits at the beginning of Rae’s term and this led to a double digit bankruptcy rate when the housing market collapsed which in turn led to the decimation of the housing construction industry; none of which was Rae’s fault. In fact, the fault for that would, rightly or wrongly, be laid at the big guy’s feet. Mulroney was the big guy at the time in case you don’t remember.

The more I think about it, if conservatives try to make this about the early 90s, the deeper they’re going to drive themselves into the ditch.

I just got tired of dealing with dicks, neoprog. Greg is much more patient than I am.

Greg doesn’t have to put up with the relentless trolling we progressives are under assault from by the right whingers.

Ahh yes, the Mike Harris comparison.

You know you’re in trouble when you have to run a campaign against someone you’re not actually running against.

And the “Harper will be just like Harris” meme had an expiry date of last March. Harper now has his own record of leadership, just as………gulp…….Rae has. I’ll take that side-by-side comparison to the bank any day.

Oh, and socialist Greg…….re: same sex marriage……..funny, I don’t see Harper bringing that the forefront. Considering that SSM is now enshrined in the law, you’d think those who purport to be for gay rights would want to leave well enough alone.

Unless……God forbid……those on the left are just exploiting gays for partisan political gain.

‘Course that wouldn’t be the case, we all know how outspoken the left is towards gay rights whatever the political downfall, like say, heralding Bush’s overthrow of regimes such as Afghanistan which kill people for being gay, ………..(crickets chirping)……

Correct me if I’m wrong (and I’m sure you will) the people who hate Harris and the same people who hated him while he was winning majorities. Rae has that as well with the added bonus of some people from his old base hating him as well.

Greg doesn’t have to put up with the relentless trolling we progressives are under assault from by the right whingers.”

But he does put up with you, Robbo. I never noticed relentless trolling at Sinister Thoughts - I thought the quality of discussion, both by the host and the participants, was pretty good.

”..it will be countered by a vitual cottage industry of Mike Harris was a disaster columns and the election in Ontario will turn into a referendum on which nightmare was worse for the province.”

I’m not sure why it would unless Mike Harris was running for Parliament.

“Greg doesn’t have to put up with the relentless trolling we progressives are under assault from by the right whingers.”

Remember, in leftie’s mind, if you disturb the echo…then you are a troll. Opposing view points need not be posted.

“

“In 1990, the Ontario government enjoyed a $90 million surplus. This became, two years later, a $10,930 million deficit. In 1993 it grew by about $1,000 and the government expects that it will fall to $9,159 million in 1994. On account of these developments, the 1994 debt, at $78,628 million, will be twice as high as the 1990 debt.

Public debt interest cost the government $5,350 million in 1993, up from $3,817 million in 1990. For 1994 it will rise to $7,150 million and consume 16.3 cents of every revenue dollar, up from 9.3 cents in 1990.”

Cite: BUDGETS 1993: FEDERAL AND PROVINCIAL RESPONSES TO RISING DEFICITS

Like was already said, the ads write themselves.

Cheers, lance

the people who hate Harris and the same people who hated him while he was winning majorities.

But popular opinion of Harris has waned considerably since then. And while Rae is thought of as a misguided fool, Harris is now thought of as a miserable prick by a great many Ontarians.

As has been pointed out, the Liberals did try to raise the spectre of Harris in the last campaign. But it didn’t have legs. If the conservatives however were to raise the 90s as an issue should Rae win, then it will open up the entirety of the 90s for debate in Ontario. Plus there are now actual comparisons that can be made between Harper and Harris.

And as we saw in the US presidential race in `04, it can get rather nasty when the past is raised as witnessed by the Dems bringing up Bush’s Vietnam record and then having their ass handed to them by the Repubs who countered with the Swiftboat attacks on Kerry. The same would happen in Ontario and in a battle between a misguided fool and a miserable prick, which one do you think will be hated more.

In addition to that, if Paul Summerville’s defense of Rae on his blog last summer is an indication of the Liberal’s defense, the liberals will tear the conservative columnists a new one. I can’t stand Bob Rae and my reasons for it are not only political but personal. But Summerville’s defense even caused me to rethink my opinion of Bob.

Rae has that as well with the added bonus of some people from his old base hating him as well.

True, but the NDP would be hard pressed to develop a strategy against Rae that didn’t also make themselves look bad.

But he does put up with you, Robbo.

In jumps dcardno the troll to make my point. Thanks.

It’s true that Harris is greatly reviled by the average Ontarian. People barely mention Rae anymore, but you should see them get all puffed up and angry about “what that Mike Harris did to this province!” When they do mention Boob Rae’s regime, the only thing that they get angry about is “Rae Days”, which was the only (lame, ineffective) attempt at cost-cutting that he did. Get it? His big crime, in the average donut-eater’s mind, was that he finally admitted that money perhaps doesn’t grow on trees after all.

It’s pathetic, really, but it only goes to show that most people think that governments have an endless supply of money tucked away somewhere, and that government spending programs are all A-OK, except when they fail (which is just about always) what they really need is a politician who isn’t afraid to tap into that massive mother-lode of untaxed money that exists (somewhere) and really crank up the spending.

And it should be a source of endless wonder that Ontarians, helpless babies as they are, who believe in the pipe-dreams of socialist conmen, are actually less socialist in their thinking than the average Canadian.

We should encourage Bobbie to continue these thoughtful posts, but the arguments are just so weak and the analogies quite stretched.

John Kerry’s war record became an issue because the Dems’ made Bush’s non-war record an issue. Got that. Bush vs. Kerry. That’s because those were the guys actually running. Not Newt Gingerich or Bill Clinton. Bush and Kerry. So 2007 will be the record of Harper vs. the record of Rae because those are the guys actually running.

Harris IS a factor in Ontario, but Jean Chretien is more so. By the springtime, running against Mike Harris would be as misguided as running against Adscam. It’s old news.

Ignatieff is a seriously flawed politician, but to the average voter he is a blank slate. At this point in Liberal history, that’s a good thing.

All that being said, Bob Rae knows how to debate. He doesn’t have a glass jaw. He can take a punch and give a punch. He needs to put himself side by side Harper as many chances as he can. Putting their records side by side won’t be pretty.

Coyne’s numbers don’t add up. He says “Of the more than $5-billion in additional spending that first year, just $1-billion was recession-related.” First of all, I remember that in that year, only $3 billion was discretionary spending to try and fend off the recession. But even if we take Coyne’s numbers, the Petersen Liberals left office claiming that Ontario had a $23 million surplus. The NDP’s first budget posted a deficit of $9.7 billion. If $5 billion of that was “discretionary” and $1 billion was due to the recession, where did the other $3.723 billion come from? Was that the number that the Liberals hid to claim they had a surplus when, in reality, they did not?

Coyne is being a bit disingenuous in his accusation, then. He claims a disputed $5 billion of discretionary spending versus $1 billion caused by the recession to suggest that the NDP were reckless spenders to a 5:1 ratio. Reality suggests that Coyne’s numbers should be $5 billion versus $4.723 billion, which is far more reasonable. Whereas I would suggest to you that the real numbers were $3 billion in discretionary spending (and a valid government spending decision, in my opinion) versus $6.723 billion forced upon Ontario residents by the recession and the outgoing Liberals. Which may have been an impossible hill to climb for the Rae government, but one which he should not bear the sole responsibility for.

Then Coyne talks about the recovery of the rest of Canada versus Ontario and lays the blame solely at Rae’s feet. This despite the fact that the Ontario economy was undergoing a restructuring brought about by the Free Trade Agreement set by the Mulroney Conservatives — a restructuring that we came out the stronger for, but which produced significant suffering while low-skill high-wage jobs vanished for cheaper factories south of the border.

Coyne is a nuanced author, and it is worthwhile taking him on in a debate, but his example illustrates how much of an axe to grind some people have over Rae’s legacy, and one wonders what motivates all of this personal loathing. The times were difficult, to be sure, but if you’re so sure that Rae is unelectable in Ontario, why are you all so afraid he’ll win? Methinks one doeth protest too much. :-)

Oh, and one other point:

Hey Sinister…it’s nice that you can participate in comment/dialogue on other folks blog sites. It’s too bad you don’t have the courage of your convictions to allow folks to respond to the drive-by smears you post on your own new site.

As opposed to drive-by smears by commentators too cowardly to do anything but comment anonymously, or run blogs of their own?

“in jumps dcardno the troll to make my point. Thanks.”

Don’t kid yourself that you had one, Robbo.

James,

don’t confuse the desire to get licks in on the new front runner with fear. Frankly, the notion that Rae’s record strikes fear in the hearts of Conservatives would be laughable, if it wasn’t so exemplary of Liberal arrogance.

Rae’s record is simply abysmal. As I can see from your attempt at defence, there will be quite the attempt to re-write history.

The public record is the public record, and there isn’t enough white-out in the country to erase what Rae’s done.

Which is kinda nice…..saving the conservtives having to spend all their money on ink and such.

“As opposed to drive-by smears by commentators too cowardly to do anything but comment anonymously, or run blogs of their own?”

Oh darn, I was unaware that one of the rules of the blogosphere was that one needed to a) have their own blog to respond to articles posted by those who do, and b) clearly identify one’s self prior to making any and all comments. My apologies James; I will cease and desist immediately. Knob!

Hey, you were the one who complained about drive-by smears, NeoProg. And you were the one complaining about Greg’s violation of your own personal blogging rules.

In response to Chester, I’m not rewriting history. This was the interpretation many Ontarians had at the end of Rae’s tenure. Plenty of people felt that he gave this province the best government that was possible during the period. And it is true that a fair chunk of Ontario’s economic woes during the early part of the 1990s were the result of economic restructuring caused by the Free Trade Act.

And you haven’t even tried to debate my point on Andrew Coyne’s faulty take on Rae’s numbers.

This is not revisionism, it’s a matter of debate. And it’s worth noting that, despite passing through the worst recession since the 1930s, Rae still convinced 20% of the voters to give him another chance. In terms of the judgment of the electorate, he beat the Mulroney Conservatives in terms of popular support and in terms of final seat totals. And the NDP have not come close to meeting his final level of popular support, since.

I’m not a Liberal. I don’t particularly care one way or the other who wins, although I think Dion would be a better leader for the Liberals than Rae. But I grew up through the Rae Days myself; I was there, and I have clear impressions of what happened and why. I disagree with your assessments, and I’m willing to say so. And I’m not the only Ontarian who thinks this way.

Protest, James, protest - you doth do it(th) to muchst ………

so sayeth Chester

I guess my comment must have stung a little for you to try to throw it back in my face. And again you avoid the debate. Such a shame.

Easy there James,

just having a little fun.

Folks around here know that Chester only has benevolent intentions.

Sometimes cutting, often brutally honest, but always……always benevolent.

Trust Chester James.

“This is not revisionism, it’s a matter of debate. And it’s worth noting that, despite passing through the worst recession since the 1930s…”

But that is revisionism - it wasn’t even the worst recession since the 1980s; see the relative output figures cited by Coyne.

“…In terms of the judgment of the electorate, he beat the Mulroney Conservatives in terms of popular support and in terms of final seat totals…”

“Not as bad as Lyin’ Brian!” - now there’s a campaign slogan “progressives” can really get behind!

“And the NDP have not come close to meeting his final level of popular support, since.”

The issue is going to be whether there’s a cause / effect relationship there. I imgine that the CPC strategists are eager to show that there is.

Now for the facts (courtesy of Greg Weston):

”* It took 40 years for mainly Conservative governments in Ontario to accumulate $20 billion in debt building the province’s schools, hospitals, highways and hydro dams. It took Bob’s NDP administration only four years to run up another $40 billion in red ink with little of enduring value to show for it at the end.

• Bob Rae is a visionary in health care. It was his NDP government that implemented the ingenious plan to cut medicare costs by reducing the number of doctors graduating from medical schools. Today, his legacy endures with a physician shortage that saves taxpayers a fortune by not having to treat millions of sick Canadians who can’t find a family doctor.

• Bob Rae is a champion of the Canadian leisure industries. For the first time since the Great Depression of the 1930s, there were fewer people employed in Ontario industries when Rae left office than when he arrived.

• Bob Rae boldly stands up for Big Business and isn’t afraid to stick it to the Little Guy, those whining small businesses that always have it easy. In the five years before Rae came to office, about 85% of all the net new jobs created in Ontario were in companies with fewer than 100 employees. Even in the 1980s recession when big companies shed more than 100,000 jobs, small businesses in the province grew by almost twice that number.

But not under Bob’s watch — a few major industries got huge bailouts, while all those mom-and-pop operations got ravaged, losing more than 100,000 jobs in the four years of NDP rule.

• Bob Rae understands what it means to be a taxpayer — when economic times get tough, the tough get taxed, thereby ensuring the economy slows to the point where everyone gets screwed equally — although some more equally than others. For instance, by the time the NDP left office, Ontario professionals and entrepreneurs earning more than $67,000 a year had the highest marginal tax rate in North America, and were ungratefully running for the border in droves.

• Bob Rae is a politician who never forgets his promises. The NDP pledged to introduce public auto insurance that would save car owners a fortune in premiums. Four years later, the Dippers were still promising socialist collision coverage even as they were being driven out of office.

• Bob Rae is perhaps the only great Canadian leader of the last century to have a day named in his honour — Rae Days. Just over a decade ago, the man who would now be the next federal Liberal leader and perhaps Canada’s next prime minister looked out upon the economic landscape he had created and saw that it was ravaged by record debt, record deficits and record job losses, and he knew exactly what needed to be done.

He hired 100,000 more public servants, gave them all a big raise, and ordered them to stay home and not get paid.”

James,

It’s articles like the above, and many others like them that Rae just won’t be able to shake.

Is is fair? I think so, but even if I’m wrong who said politics is fair.

If in a future election the Harper government brings Rae’s record as a political leader of a sizeable government into play, the response in some quarters is going to be to attack Mike Harris and Brian Mulroney? It’s your dime.

All of those points are debatable, though.

First of all, it’s not revisionism to call the early 1990s recession the worst since the 1930s. It’s again a matter of debate, and I’m not the only one who has said this. I would argue that it certainly outpaced that of the early eighties in terms of the impact it had on many people’s lives. Don’t forget that this is the period when George H.W. Bush, a president rendered almost invincible after winning the Vietnam-exorcising war in the Persian Gulf, was toppled because “it’s the economy, stupid!”

The recession lingered in Ontario, yes, but again that can all be put down to the economic restructuring wrought by the Free Trade Agreement. A ring of impoverished neighbourhoods opened up in Toronto’s inner suburbs at this time; areas which used to be strong working class neighbourhoods, all centred around industries that either went bankrupt or fled south following the dropping of tariffs.

As I said, Ontario came out of the restructuring stronger, but the pain was real, and it occurred during Rae’s tenure. The ultimate responsibility for it rests with Mulroney. And I think that many Ontarians understand this, and this makes Rae far less the bogeyman you seem to think he is.

I’m no NDPer. I belong to no political party. I’m just an average voter. You’re convinced that Rae’s legacy will haunt him, but you’re significantly more partisan than I am. I’m just telling you, as an average voter, Rae isn’t as unelectable as you think he is.

If in a future election the Harper government brings Rae’s record as a political leader of a sizeable government into play, the response in some quarters is going to be to attack Mike Harris and Brian Mulroney? It’s your dime.

In the minds of many voters, Stephen Harper is strongly linked with Mike Harris and Brian Mulroney. Is it fair? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But as somebody else said, politics isn’t fair.

Ministers Flaherty, Baird and Clement. There are already links to Mike Harris. I think that is a good thing but as James correctly points out I am biased.

Hey, the Libs can try and drudge up any number of past leaders with poor records in response to attacks on Rae’s record.

The very fact that HARPER’S record isn’t within contemplation of comparison and that one has to go back and look for the “historically worst” to compare to Rae pretty much says it all.

Yes these points are “debateable”. I’m sure the conservatives would love that debate to carry on right untill election day.

Yeah, but I’m pretty sure that the Conservatives won’t be getting the joy they’re expecting.

On the issue of Mike Harris, you mention, Greg, that he was reviled even though he won majorities. That was only for the first five years of his tenure. By 2000, the bloom was off the rose. I think the strongest sign that his lustre was fading came in the byelection of Vaughan-King-Aurora, which Greg Sorbara eventually won. Yes, by-elections rarely go well with governments, but it’s important to note that the Harris team threw everything they had towards keeping this seat, bringing in a fairly popular candidate and plastering her signs with “the Mike Harris Candidate”. The Conservatives made that by-election a referendum on the government, and they lost.

I’m certain that had Harris stayed on to 2003, he too would have gone down to defeat. He would have won more seats than Ernie Eves (who ran a terrible campaign), but he would still have lost handily. Most voters were just sick of him. And since Stephen Harper is tied to his star, he’s tied to that taint in a Rae/Harris referendum.

James,

I’m sure you can appreciate the difference between attempint to “tie” someone to a taint,

and actually being the taint.

As I’ve stated above the “Harper’s like Harris” meme expired last March. That’s the point at which Harper started governing and would be largely judged on his record and not on what Liberals say what his record would be.

We know how Harper has led, and we know how Rae has led.

You seem to think this will be like the last election where the Libs will tell Canadians all kinds of scary Harper stories and they’ll believe it.

I’m still waiting for the paramilataristic control of our streets, and the quashing of all of our basic rights.

With Rae, we don’t have to make up scary stories as to what may happen under his rule. We know what happened. As for giving him another chance, why would voters risk it?

I can see it now:

“Vote for Rae, this time our economy won’t be ravaged under his leadership”…….I like it, it’s kinda catchy.

Whatever. Rae did not ravage the Ontario economy, and I think most voters will recognize such hyperbole.

I’m just telling you what I’m hearing. If you want to believe that Rae is no competition for you, it’s your funeral.

I don’t “want to believe”, I DO believe. And it won’t be my funeral, it’ll be more like……

my bachelor party, with all kinds of dips, and drinks with little umbrellas and…..well there won’t be strippers there, cuz I’m married now, but the wife will be wearing a pretty skimpy outfit!

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