Apolitical Staples

The brilliant person who pointed that out must be the same one whose comment on the original thread still hasn’t been approved ;)

Yours is the second comment in the preceding post.

Yup. But I tried to post a follow-up comment.

No biggie at all [as evidenced, hopefully, by the ” ;) ” following my last comment], especially since you’ve pointed out the consequences of “Waka-jumping” under the law in NZ (although I think that law has expired…)

Anyway, my not-very-bruised ego aside, I’m trying myself to decide if such a system in Canada would make me more or less in favour of MMP.

I’m not so fussed about a party leader having the unilaterial power to end an MP’s career. But then again, if such an MP was elected on a party list, and if the party leader no longer wants him/her around, it makes some sense for that MP to be replaced by an MP who actually reflects the party line.

And even if that system is, in theory, open to abuse by an unscrupulous (or overly-sensitive) party leader, in practice a PM or Premier would have to be somewhat careful in kicking out party list MPs too often, as doing so wouldn’t make for good headlines if it happened too often.

But you could always dress up the expulsion as a political difference, or make a political molehill into a mountain to justify terminating an unpleasant or uncooperative MP’s career. Although the eventual outcome was (more or less) the same, imagine John Nunziata dealing with Jean Chretien under those conditions. If the MP is going to vote under the party’s direction and toe the party line (and under those circumstances, that’s what I would expect) why bother with the expense of having them - just give the leaders the number of votes in the House that their overall results would dictate and let them go at it.

Hey Jason, sorry if your comment did not appear. I did nothing on my end to make that happen so it must have been a glitch.

DCardno has identified one of the biggest problems with any PR system, in my view. Too many people seem to be saying “well, MPs are usually pretty ineffectual in our system, so let’s make them completely meaningless”. Maybe I’m sentimental, but I like the idea that single MPs should have some power, instead of giving it all to party leaders.

I like the idea that single MPs should have some power, instead of giving it all to party leaders.

What I can’t figure out is why anyone thinks that all that power should be given to either individual MPs or party leaders. Have ordinary people devolved into some kind of congenital retards compared to 100 years ago? Have political aspirants evolved into superbeings?

If not then there are only two possible explanations for the frustration you feel with the political system. Either some kind of mysterious defect in the way that ballots are organized and counted has cropped up in the last few decades, or maybe - just maybe - power corrupts.

Greg: No worries!

MarkCh: I don’t see MPPs being less empowered in a practical sense, insofar as most Ontarians are concerned, if a MMP system is adopted.

Obviously, it makes a huge difference from the point of view of the MPP him/herself, as to whether the MPP is forced to sit as an independent versus getting kicked out of the job altogether.

But one reason (amongst many others) why so few people get elected as independent MPPs is that voters would more often than not rather be represented by an MPP (or MP federally, or whatever) who belongs to “a team” - preferably, but not necessarily, a member of the “winning” team, but even still, people vote for BQ and NDP candidates not b/c they expect those parties to form government, but because they like what “their team” represents.

In other words, the issue of empowering individual MPPs, etc. and how that can be accmplished, are worthy topics but I don’t see a Mixed-Member system changing the calculus of those issues to a huge extent, even if the “New Zealand” model against floor-crossing is adopted.

The issue, as I see it, is whether the legislature should more closely represent the votes received by the respective parties, and whether that result is worth the other changes - such as more frequent minority governments, etc - that will result.

But Jason, don’t underestimate the power of legitimacy. Right now, an MPP draws much of his legitimacy from his win in his riding. The list MPP’s have no such legitimacy, and will therefore feel more beholden to their party, since they will know that they were elected only because of their party. This is a bad thing. And I know about wasted votes, as I am a federal CPC member in Trinity-Spadina.